07 May 2015

More on the English language's tendency to isolatingness


My article "The Astonishing Primitiveness of the English Language" has drawn a large number of angry comments from the native English speakers who are, as I have clearly pointed out, definitely not the target audience of that article. "How dare you say our language is primitive?" Their anger is perfectly understandable, them being so used to being looked up to by all the world. But they just don't have an idea what it's like to have at your disposal a language where you can substitute one affix for another and get a different meaning which would take ten words in English to explain.


Anyway, I would like to take this opportunity to try and clarify a couple of things, lest someone begins to think that it's somehow difficult for me to reply to the criticism I've been getting.


I read an article some time ago (too bad I can't find it anymore) where a native English speaker discussed the differences of languages. He brought examples from the Chinese, showing how the verbs and nouns don't have various grammatical forms the way they do in English. Indeed he demonstrated quite convincingly that the Chinese people's way of thinking must be quite different from the English people's. But he was too afraid to spell it out, so he took it all back by saying something like this: "Do those examples mean that the Chinese people's way of thinking is different from the English people's. No-no, of course not! Every people's way of thinking is exactly the same. It's just that the Chinese express less meaning with the actual language and leave much of the meaning to be deduced from the context."

Well, that is exactly what I mean by saying that a language is primitive. You have to leave much of the meaning to be deduced from the context, because you can't express it through the language.
And just so you don't suspect me of native language bias, let me tell you that I heard a Chinese woman who was teaching the Chinese language say to her students in the first lesson: "Our language is easy to learn because we have no grammar."

The point of my previous article was that English looks to us like Chinese looks to the native English speakers. While English may technically qualify as a synthetic language, on a scale isolating-synthetic it is closer to Chinese than to, for instance, Russian. (Just as before, I am deliberately limiting the discussion as much as possible to big languages, in order to not deprive the readers of the opportunity to argue against me.)


I think the fastest and easiest way to get a personal impression of what kind of a crippled language English is, is by translating subtitles from and into English. (Or, equivalently, create non-English subtitles for an English-language movie, and English subtitles for a non-English-language movie.) When you translate subtitles into English, you will be... well... sad, really, to see how much meaning gets lost because you just can't say it in English, at least not at acceptable subtitle length. Staying with the example of Russian, virtually all those же, -то and -ка which are such a delight to listen to will be impossible for you to share with your English viewers, just as a number of other nuances which add colour to the text's factual content.

The same thing does not happen when you translate subtitles from English. On the contrary. You will routinely find yourself in situations where the English text goes like: "A is B. C is D," and in the target language you have to write "A is B, and C is D," because without "and" it would just look totally weird. Or the English text goes like: "A is B. C is D," and in the target language you have to write "A is B, because C is D," because without "because" it would just look totally weird. Or the English text goes like: "A is B. C is D," and in the target language you have to write "A is B. After all, C is D," because without "after all" it would just look totally weird.
For some reason, the native English speakers tend to choose to omit those "ands" and "buts" and "becauses" and "isn't it?s", putting only the bare facts into their words and leaving the rest to intonation and (the listener's understanding of the) context.

Look at this line from a US movie:
Wilmer, I'm sorry to lose you, but I want you to know I couldn't be fonder of you if you were my own son. Well, if you lose a son, it's possible to get another. There's only one Maltese Falcon.
If it were a written text, I would automatically assume that there is a typographical error, the word "but" having been mistakenly omitted before "There's only...". One can beget another son, but one cannot find another Maltese Falcon. I mean, binding two statements with the word "but" is not a complex linguistic concept like imperfect progressive. It is one of the most elementary things in the human language. There can hardly be a human being in the world for whom it is too difficult to understand or too uncomfortable to use. But that character in the movie actually talks like that, so it's not a mistake, the writer actually meant it to be that way.
Or look at that passage from a famous British writer's novel:
She was going to be tortured, she was going to be raped, she was going to be shot. She had done nothing. She did not want to die.
If someone wrote like that in my native language, people would think he's retarded. I mean, really. What is it, a computer program or a novel?
Or look at this conversation from a US TV series:
"No, she's telling the truth. Something happened. Something too horrible for her mind to handle. Her memory's blocked."
"Well, even if that's true, maybe it's blocked because she killed Kara."
"Well, it's possible. I don't think so. I think she's a victim."
I just can't understand how any human being in the world would say it without the word "but" before "I don't think so." It is possible, but I don't think so. It's not like he reflected for a while and then said: "No, I don't think so." He said "I don't think so," immediately after "Well, it's possible."
And, just to make the picture complete, in my native language I would almost certainly add a certain word before "think she's a victim", but that nuance would take unreasonably long to explain here.
 
That kind of thing keeps popping up in English all the time. Maybe the most jaw-dropping example of this kind is this conversation in an Australian movie.
The character says (apparently referring to neighbourhoods of a city):
"I live in the Mountains because Blacktown or Penrith would kill me."
The subtitles that came with the movie read, would you believe:
"I live in the Mountains, Blacktown or Penrith would kill me."
Let me make this absolutely clear: the word "because" is spoken, but omitted in the subtitles!
Could be just a mistake. But it could also be that the author of the subtitles felt that "because" was an unnecessary word that could be omitted. I wouldn't be surprised, not the slightest, because I have seen so many occasions in English-language movies and books where the second part of the sentence is the cause of the first part of the sentence and yet there is no word "because" between them.
 
Added later:
No, it was not a mistake. Here is a dialogue from a TV series:
"Mugging gone wrong maybe?"
"Don't think so. His wallet's gone, but he did have this on him." (showing a certain object of value)

The subtitles say:
"Don't think so. His wallet's gone. He did have this on him."
It is obvious to every sane human being outside the English-speaking world that the world "but" is essential here. But the author of the subtitles who wouldn't skip one single "uh", "um", "ooh", "ah", "unh", "ahem", "ha ha" or "ha ha ha" thought the word "but" was irrelevant.

Another example. (Some moron accused me in a comment of not bringing examples. Ha!)
Speech:
Walter wouldn't let that happen. At least I believe he wouldn't let that happen.
Subtitles:
Walter wouldn't let that happen. I believe he wouldn't let that happen.
So, another retard (or possibly the same one) who would never skip a "uh", "uhn", "ahem" or "heh" and thinks the difference between "ha ha" and "ha ha ha" is vitally important, considers the words "at least" irrelevant in this context!!!!
Really, those people's brains ought to be scientifically researched.
 
Of course, if English is the only language you speak properly, chances are you won't notice it and even if you did, you wouldn't find anything wrong with it. And that is, as I've been saying, the reason why it will be pointless for a monolingual person to participate in this discussion. How can you be able to bring forward expert arguments in favour or disfavour of various sniper rifles if you have never fired one? I have no use for armchair theoreticians. I am only interested in discussions with people whom I can learn from. Unless you have considerable tongue-on experience with languages, do not waste my time.

By the way, the other side of the coin is that Russians, for instance, have the tendency to excessively start sentences with "А..." ("But..."). Often it doesn't really add anything, it's just a bad habit. It's like the native English speakers' tendency to start their sentences with an unnecessary "Well..." But that doesn't disprove my point because for every superfluous "well" they omit a couple of necessary "buts" and such.


I was suggesting in my previous article that somehow the English speakers' linguistical thinking seems to be closer to that of the Chinese than that of the Continental European peoples. That can be seen from the fact that the English language has been and still is developing in the direction of isolatingness. Meaning, the native English speakers seem to like to leave unused even those rudiments of grammar which their language still has. I brought examples of that in my previous article. Here I'd like to add just one thing. Recently I have begun noticing how often the native English speakers use the present tense when talking about the past. For instance, they are asked to recall what exactly happened when they came home last night, and they're like: "I open the door, I walk in, I see a broken cup on the floor." That kind of a stylistic tool is occasionally used in other languages as well, and it totally has its benefits in certain situations, but the English-speaking peoples seem to be doing it on a regular basis. So, they seem to have a linguistical mindset similar to that Chinese girl who told me in perfect seriousness that it is pointless to put the verb into the past tense when it is clear from the word "yesterday" that the events described take place in the past.
And another thing I just remembered – I keep seeing adjectives used as adverbs (like, people write "doubtless" when they mean "doubtlessly"). Why bother adding the suffix when you will be understood anyway, right? And why bother saying "they are" when "they is" will be understood just as well, right?
And they almost always say "maximum" when they mean "maximal". I don't know if the adverb would in that case be "maximumly" or would it remain "maximally". (Oh, I forgot. They omit the "-ly", of course. Silly me.)
And it's just unbelievable how they keep mixing up "who" and "whom". I mean, what kind of a retard wouldn't know when to say "who" and when to say "whom"?
I could go on but I think you're getting my point by now.

For the record, I am not saying that a primitive language is necessarily a bad language. (For instance, a vague language like English is a blessing for poets and comedians.) I'm just dying to understand what it is that makes people create more or less complexity in their languages. The way the prevailing mentality of an ethnic group is reflected in their language is one of the most fascinating subjects in the world, as far as I am concerned. Not only that, but there is that general tendency of languages to slowly alter their type (a process which is well known to be taking place with my native language as well). As I understand, the only legitimate explanation under the yoke of political correctness is "it just happens". That is not satisfactory. I want to understand what it is that makes English move away from the languages it shares a common origin with. What on Earth might be the similarities between the English people and the Chinese people that make them enjoy the same kinds of things in a language?

I mean, the linguists seem to be largely concentrating on figuring out which languages are related in terms of stemming from the same proto-language. While that is very important, I have found curious connections which don't seem to fit in any linguistical categories – such as certain affinities between German, Estonian and Russian on one side, and English, Swedish and Finnish on the other side. A Swedish text translates into Finnish almost by itself, while translating it into Estonian is really hard work. There are connections between languages which seem to have something to do with not just common history and exchange of vocabulary, but also with some sort of linguistic mentality. The linguists admit the existence of such tendencies in certain isolated cases, such as the Balkan sprachbund (amazingly, in almost a hundred years, the English haven't managed to create a word of their own for it; I mean, it must be hell for them to pronounce it), but the phenomenon is much wider. Chinese and Vietnamese are considered to be totally unrelated, but they are in fact very similar. (I daresay more so that Chinese and Thai which are supposed to be related.) Finnish and Hungarian may technically be related, but for all practical purposes they're not much closer than Finnish and Quechua. I mean, relatedness of the languages is undoubtedly verifiable and has its useful purpose in language research, but it's being grossly overvalued at the expense of other connections which are not so easy to quantify scientifically (such as  the greater or smaller overlapping of semantic fields). I mean, Hungarian is related to Finnish while Swedish has no relation to Finnish whatsoever, but in the real life a native Finnish speaker would surely find Swedish much easier to learn than Hungarian – not only in terms of common vocabulary (which can be explained by geographical closeness and a long common history) but also in terms of grammar. Meaning, when he has learned the vocabulary, he will find it much easier to form grammatically correct Swedish phrases than Hungarian ones.
That is that other kind of relatedness which I don't know the proper term for and which seems to be more than mere areal diffusion. I mean, why do the black Americans tend to make their English more primitive than the average speaker – a phenomenon routinely sneered at by the white racists? Where does that tendency come from? Their African origin (as the racists would suggest)? I don't think so. After all, the major African languages seem to be grammatically more complex than English, so it doesn't look like the black people have less capability for, or tolerance of, language complexity. And the English don't seem to be all that different from the other Europeans, so what is it that makes them shun morphology, or stick to an amazingly rigid syntax? Speaking of language contacts and mutual influences, look at the strikingly complex grammar of Irish. Why hasn't it rubbed off on the English speakers, the latter seeming rather like Chinese-minded people struggling to get rid of the curse of a Germanic grammar? With a large percentage of Irish in the population of the USA, why seem the Americans more inclined to primitivising their language than the British?
One might suggest that English and Chinese share the drag to primitivity because they are both languages of big empires, the assimilated peoples having learned the language improperly and thus contributing to its primitivisation. No, that won't fly either, because if it were so, why hasn't it happened to Russian? Sure enough, German, an empire-language, is more primitive than Icelandic, a non-empire-language, but so are Norwegian, Swedish and Danish which have hardly had anything worth calling an empire. Neither does Spanish have a simpler grammar than Italian – and speaking of Romanic languages, Latin has one of the most superior grammars there's ever been, and the Romans most certainly assimilated a lot of foreign peoples. Yet their language went primitive (that is, split into a number of related languages more primitive than Latin) only after the empire was gone, that is when the various groups of former non-Romans went their own separate ways. So the empire hypothesis just won't do. It must be something else.

I would very much like to know if such things have been studied apart from isolated research papers stating "wow, it's so interesting and we have no idea what makes it so".








9 comments:

Anonymous said...

West african languages the slaves spoke were isolating, anyway you may want to see this:
http://www.academia.edu/13896948/Is_Radical_Analyticity_Normal_Implications_of_Niger-Congo_and_Southeast_Asia_for_Typology_and_Diachronic_Theory

Though he includes languages like "Tagalog" as inflecting despite there being little modification to the meaning of a word. Most major agglutinating african languages are like steroid pumped tagalogs, "inflection" but little or no ability to add modification to the word through hundreds of affixes to change their inherent meaning such as going from "give" to "forgive". The inflection there is is 99% regular too.

Also phonological complexity, why do you think languages in Papua new Guinea exist with only 11 sounds like Rotokas yet relatively nearby there is Yeli Dnye with 90 (maybe more) sounds?

Third, regularity, why are there crystal clear systems such as Turkish in this world yet we have Navajo where every verb is irregular with a hundred exceptions for all of them?

Fourth this implies languages like Danish which are leaning towards the uninflected side (Danish being as uninflected as English, yet despite being that way it has more distinctions such as v2. word order, productive prefixes, become passives, to be perfects, whence and whither not just "where", modal particles, a second person plural pronoun, tu vous distinction, no random ommission of words like "but, and, if, etc." among other things such as productive word forming suffixes and compounding, idiomatic prepositional usage that is disappearing in English) would be miles harder than Turkish despite Turkish being "less primitive", your thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Did you get the post?

Jaaguar said...

I did. Thank you.

Jaaguar said...

As to Tagalog, I agree with you. As to the African languages, I said "seem" because it is only my superficial impression which is not necessarily correct. If you say that the languages which the slaves originally spoke are isolating, then it supports my point even more.

I haven't really thought about phonological complexity. It is a very interesting question. In general, I have the theory that every language creates complexity in some way – for example, Chinese which has a very simple grammar has a very difficult writing system. But there is complexity which adds to expressiveness (such as verb prefixes) and there is complexity which adds virtually nothing to expressiveness (such as grammatical gender). I have the hypothesis that people create complexity in their languages in order to be able to recognise foreigners. A non-German can learn to pronounce German without an accent, but it is virtually hopeless for him to remember which flower or insect is masculine, which is feminine and which is neutral. Therefore, he will sooner or later give himself away. But that's a longer story.

I haven't studied any Turkic Languages but I'm not so sure Danish is all that hard. Norwegian bokmål should be very easy for a native English speaker, and Danish is almost the same language, albeit more conservative. I don't think it would be more difficult than Icelandic which is pretty manageable.

But yes, I really ought to study something like Swahili and one of the Turkic languages. (I am very interested in Uzbek.) And one of the Amerind languages.

Jaaguar said...

As to people's tendency to simplify the language, something very curious occurred to me just recently. I happened to read some stuff on the subject "grammar Nazi" and I was amazed at the abuse the people who dislike sloppy writing are generally getting. Speakers of other languages also occasionally complain about the philologists' annoying insistence on some minor grammatical rules, but English seems to be the only language whose retarded speakers actually feel morally superior to the non-retarded. I can't imagine that a Russian or German would take pride in being unable to distinguish in their native languages something as elementary as the distinction between "your" and "you're" is in English.

Anonymous said...

To reply, I suspect the modern African languages with inflection but no derivation or irregularity were isolating in the past and their morphology is new. Here I disagree with mcwhorter. There is one "polysynthetic language" in Asia called Japhug/Situ whose morphology is new enough as well. The Zapotec/Mazahua languages in central america also look like "newly inflecting languages" too. Japanese also is a good example, it used to be an ancient creole of Altaic and Austronesian, all of its verbal inflection is new, the nouns and the rest of the syntax is creole like still (no articles, no plurality, reduplication and so on) the phonology is baby-like but all are more complex than the past. Modern Chinese may have been retarded (oh god I can't say "be-retarded) by the writing systemn. But Modern Chinese is still better off than archaic. Likewise modern mongolian is more complex than the one spoken by Ghenghis Khan phonologically and grammatically. Some native American languages also show signs of being newer. Korean as it is has lost complexity and is regular both semantically and morphologically.

An ultimately complex language require having certain features simultaneously. David Gil proposed complexity is itself a feature. If you know how punnet squares work, all genes will appear in one individual (ancient greek in my opinion is the most difficult and complex languages to have been recorded, yes, more than Navajo or Russian) and some will not appear at all in one (Riau Indonesian with few sounds, no morphology, no syntax, where even word order has no role OVS,SVO,OSV,VSO,VOS,SOV are all tolerated "Book drink man"="A man drinks with a book") and the rest as mixes. To have syntax, phonology, morphology, derivation, politeness rules, random prepositions (in/on/at) etc. all features can exist in one and not exist in another. I subscribe to this idea of distribution.

(Amerind languages vary, there is something very easy like Comanche and nightmares like Navajo. This also confuses, why does complexity vary so much among families themselves?)

Grammar Nazis as an issue are mixed to me. Some ideas seem useless (ending a sentence with a preposition, split infinitives, etc.) but others like not using a noun as a verb with no prefix, using a modal verb with a certain conjunction etc. seem to make sense. I am forced as a native english speaker to blend in (Why must I say "I walk this street" and not "I walk on this street", why "Thou art mine enemy" but "You (all?) are my enemy" )

I also find it puzzling like you that complex grammar doesn't seem to rub off (why didn't the Thais get a clue when borrowing thousands upon thousands of Sanskrit loanwords?) but it does elsewhere (look at the Caucaus mountains, all their complexity is the result of mixing language features; google the Metis languages, it combines all the complexities of French and Cree being more difficult than either in every way).

For regularity: It can be partially explained by lifestyles, nomadic languages tend to be "refreshed" each generation. European languages only started getting irregular when literary and oral traditions could finally take place to preserve old forms and people settled heavily in one spot. But then there are contradictions to this idea.
Your native estonian also used to be less complex, go back to proto Uralic and there were only 2 tenses, 6 cases with no irregularity, few sounds, and adjectives were uninflected.

The best analogy is cuisine, why is the cuisine of the French and Indians so more elaborated than the that of Philipines despite the plethora of ingredients? Why is Mongolian cuisine so bland being nothing more than meat and kumis yet the northern Chinese made numerous dishes with what they had to a greater extent? And even then there is variation, location can explain part of it but there will be exceptions. Culture too, religions, why are some more elaborated with greater philosophical elements? ETC.

Jaaguar said...

Various word orders being tolerated does not mean that the word order doesn't have a role. When "Book drink man" means "A man drinks with a book", it means that the word order HAS a role. Compare it to "I haven't seen this" and "this I haven't seen" in English. Here a different word order carries a different meaning.

In Estonian, for instance, you can express a multitude of nuances by changing the word order. An example:
(sa = you; käisid = went; kinos = in the movies; eile = yesterday)

Sa käisid eile kinos. = "You went to the movies yesterday."
Sa käisid kinos eile. = "You went to the movies yesterday." (i.e. not today; it was yesterday that you went to the movies)
Eile käisid sa kinos. = "Yesterday, you went to the movies." (i.e. not to the theatre; what you did yesterday was going to the movies)
Eile sa käisid kinos. = "Yesterday, you did go to the movies." (can be said when the other person, for example, claims that he hasn't been to the movies for a long time)
Sa eile käisid kinos. = "You (already) went to the movies yesterday." (can be said, for example, to express my surprise when you say that you will go to the movies today and I wonder that you do it so often)
Kinos käisid sa eile. = "You went to the movies yesterday." (i.e. it was yesterday when you went to the movies; when you say that you went to the movies the day before, I could say: "No, you went to the movies yesterday.")
Käisid sa eile kinos? = "Did you go to the movies yesterday?"
Käisid sa kinos eile? = "Did you go to the movies yesterday?" (i.e. was it yesterday that you went to the movies?)
Sa eile kinos käisid? = "Did you go to the movies yesterday?" (a question indicating that you were supposed to go to the movies yesterday, and I am confirming that you did; colloquial language)

In Russian, the word order is even freer. In many types of sentences you have the choice of putting the words in a different sequence, resulting in one word being stressed slightly more than another one while the essential meaing remains the same.

Jaaguar said...

What you said about languages getting more complicated over time is extremely interesting. I've been rather having the impression that many in the younger generation tends to be too stupid to learn the language rules properly. But of course we're not talking centuries and millennia here. :-)

Anonymous said...

I'll compare Proto Uralic with Estonian (forgive my errors) for you to show you what happened.
Consonants: 20 in PU, Estonian has 17 but 3 length distinctions mid word.
Vowels: 8 in PU, Estonian has 9 with 3 length distinctions (27) and at least 2 dozen diphthongs.
Nouns: PU has 6 cases used for everything probably with adverbs and some linking nouns. Estonian cases...the genitive and partitive singular, damn! And dozens of postpositions and several prepositions.
Verbs: Pu has two tenses and definite and indefinite conjugation, all verbs were conjugated the same like Esperanto. Estonian has two unpredictable infinitive bases from which participles can be derived. The two tenses are formed on these infinitives and two perfects can be formed with auxiliaries. Only the direct non negative forms use person and number marking....etc. etc.
Consonant Gradation: PU has none, three stops can be voiced allophonically in certain enviroments but that's it.
Estonian has an incredible amount of gradation paradigms with numerous exceptions and irregularities, while there is no vowel harmony there are rules about vowel lengthening due to certain processes whereby sounds coalesce, consonants also assimilate according to euphonic rules ...................etc etc.

So it is not always one way. Often the way a language is is due to what other languages around it are like. Korean and Japanese have morphology for the verbs and a decent amount of derivation. But inflection for everything else in Korean is like tagalog and isolating in Japanese. Japanese was an ex creole/pidgin which started getting back up, whose growth was then stunted by the Chinese monosyllabic thing, only the verbs have decent inflection and there is decent derivation with grammatical politeness, but then it's tagalog. Middle Korean was as inflecting as Hungarian, now the language has slowly moved towards Japanese's path with each century (still very far away though). On the other end, some languages closer to India are very very slowly going in the other direction.

The super earliest-proto Indo European likely had no adjectives, no gender, no articles, no third person pronouns just demonstratives, no plurals except optionally for humans (like Asian languages), 8 cases which were the same for almost every noun, no prepositions, a basic system of conjugation where unstressed pronouns are suffixed with some tense markers...it looks like a lesser spoken Austronesian language
Now we have Russian.

A complex system that works can only come from a simpler system that complexified. Do you think our first ancestors started speaking something like Estonian? They used grunts, these grunts became pidgins, they became isolating languages which then evolved inflection. Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that many languages today may have been isolating or pidginized 30,000 years in the past but long enough has passed?
Thinking about that gives me hope English will return to being like German after maybe 5,000 years when the language is stabilized with no foreign learners lol.